Discussion:
Saddam bought off the Frogs
(too old to reply)
ßÅÐŧ§
2004-01-29 05:32:17 UTC
Permalink
And still the Frogs want a cut of the reconstruction take. Sacre bleu!


Iraqi government docs: Saddam bribed France

Papers said to have come from ousted regime show oil used to buy opposition

Posted: January 28, 2004

Saddam Hussein used oil to bribe French officials into opposing the U.S.-led
war against Iraq, according to documents purportedly from the ousted Baghdad
regime's oil ministry.

The U.S.-backed Iraqi Governing Council is investigating the claim, which
was prompted by a report from an independent Baghdad newspaper, al-Mada, the
London Independent reported today.

From the government documents, the Iraqi paper published a list of 46
individuals, companies and organizations inside and outside Iraq given
millions of barrels of oil.

"I think the list is true," Naseer Chaderji, a Governing Council member,
said, according to the London daily. "I will demand an investigation. These
people must be prosecuted."

The discovery comes after month of rumors about the eventual surfacing of
documents that would implicate senior French officials and undermine
President Jacques Chirac's moral opposition to overthrowing Saddam Hussein.

Negotiations in the U.N. Security Council for another resolution to give the
United States and Britain sanction to launch the war broke down in the face
of a veto threat from France. Since then, relations with Paris have been
tense.

The London paper cited a senior Bush administration official who said the
White House is aware of the reports, but he refused to comment.

France has insisted its opposition to war with Iraq did not equate with
support for Saddam, but British diplomats have been suspicious of French
motives, the Independent said.

"Oil runs thicker than blood," one unnamed former ambassador said.

The Iraqi newspapers list included members of Arab ruling families,
religious organizations, politicians and political parties from Egypt,
Jordan, Syria, the United Arab Emirates, Turkey, Sudan, China, Austria,
France and other countries, the Independent said, noting no names were
available at press time.

The organizations on the list included the Russian Orthodox Church and the
Russian Communist Party, India's Congress Party and the Palestine Liberation
Organization.

The Iraqi authorities want to interview prominent officials from Saddam's
regime held by the Coalition Provisional Authority, including the former oil
minister, Amer Mohammed Rashid.

Oil ministry spokesman Assem Jihad said the stolen documents could prove
Saddam used bribery to rally support.

"Anyone stealing Iraqi wealth will be prosecuted," he said, according to the
Independent.



http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=36820
Euro
2004-01-29 14:15:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by ßÅÐŧ§
And still the Frogs want a cut of the reconstruction take. Sacre bleu!
Iraqi government docs: Saddam bribed France
"Oil runs thicker than blood," one unnamed former ambassador said.

So, the Bushies are bitching that France's motives were Iraqi oil.

Even if true, isn't that the pot calling the kettle black?

Euro
Wm. B. Yeats
2004-01-30 15:57:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by ßÅÐŧ§
Post by ßÅÐŧ§
And still the Frogs want a cut of the reconstruction take. Sacre bleu!
Iraqi government docs: Saddam bribed France
"Oil runs thicker than blood," one unnamed former ambassador said.
So, the Bushies are bitching that France's motives were Iraqi oil.
Even if true, isn't that the pot calling the kettle black?
Euro
No, Mr Bush does everything for Christian reasons - I think the
original plan was to crucify Saddam and annoint himself with Iraqi
oil.

WB Yeats
brojack
2004-01-30 16:12:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wm. B. Yeats
Post by ßÅÐŧ§
Post by ßÅÐŧ§
And still the Frogs want a cut of the reconstruction take. Sacre bleu!
Iraqi government docs: Saddam bribed France
"Oil runs thicker than blood," one unnamed former ambassador said.
So, the Bushies are bitching that France's motives were Iraqi oil.
Even if true, isn't that the pot calling the kettle black?
Euro
No, Mr Bush does everything for Christian reasons - I think the
original plan was to crucify Saddam and annoint himself with Iraqi
oil.
WB Yeats
Hey, it's Comical Ali.

BroJack
Wm. B. Yeats
2004-02-01 16:28:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by brojack
Post by Wm. B. Yeats
Post by ßÅÐŧ§
Post by ßÅÐŧ§
And still the Frogs want a cut of the reconstruction take. Sacre bleu!
Iraqi government docs: Saddam bribed France
"Oil runs thicker than blood," one unnamed former ambassador said.
So, the Bushies are bitching that France's motives were Iraqi oil.
Even if true, isn't that the pot calling the kettle black?
Euro
No, Mr Bush does everything for Christian reasons - I think the
original plan was to crucify Saddam and annoint himself with Iraqi
oil.
WB Yeats
Hey, it's Comical Ali.
BroJack
Comedy: "Though it make the unskillful laugh, cannot but make the
judicious grieve." William Shakespeare

WB Yeats
Richard
2004-01-30 21:23:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by ßÅÐŧ§
Post by ßÅÐŧ§
And still the Frogs want a cut of the reconstruction take. Sacre bleu!
Iraqi government docs: Saddam bribed France
"Oil runs thicker than blood," one unnamed former ambassador said.
So, the Bushies are bitching that France's motives were Iraqi oil.
Even if true, isn't that the pot calling the kettle black?
Euro
In analyzing what happened after the French and Krauts deserted their U.S.
allies in this matter, many French observers have stated categorically that
France has been irreparably harmed politically, economically by not joining
with the U.S. They lost on two counts, in other words.
Serves them right.
-Rich
Euro
2004-01-31 09:31:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard
Post by ßÅÐŧ§
Post by ßÅÐŧ§
And still the Frogs want a cut of the reconstruction take. Sacre bleu!
Iraqi government docs: Saddam bribed France
"Oil runs thicker than blood," one unnamed former ambassador said.
So, the Bushies are bitching that France's motives were Iraqi oil.
Even if true, isn't that the pot calling the kettle black?
Euro
In analyzing what happened after the French and Krauts deserted their U.S.
allies in this matter, many French observers have stated categorically that
France has been irreparably harmed politically, economically by not joining
with the U.S. They lost on two counts, in other words.
Serves them right.
-Rich
Whereas the US have every day soldiers dying in a foreign country where it
is impossible to find any weapon of mass destruction - as had been predicted
by many.

Euro
AlleyCat
2004-01-31 14:23:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard
Post by Richard
Post by ßÅÐŧ§
Post by ßÅÐŧ§
And still the Frogs want a cut of the reconstruction take. Sacre
bleu!
Post by Richard
Post by ßÅÐŧ§
Post by ßÅÐŧ§
Iraqi government docs: Saddam bribed France
"Oil runs thicker than blood," one unnamed former ambassador said.
So, the Bushies are bitching that France's motives were Iraqi oil.
Even if true, isn't that the pot calling the kettle black?
Euro
In analyzing what happened after the French and Krauts deserted their U.S.
allies in this matter, many French observers have stated categorically
that
Post by Richard
France has been irreparably harmed politically, economically by not
joining
Post by Richard
with the U.S. They lost on two counts, in other words.
Serves them right.
-Rich
Whereas the US have every day soldiers dying in a foreign country where it
is impossible to find any weapon of mass destruction - as had been predicted
by many.
Euro
As what Byron De La Beckwith said about Medger Evers, the same goes for
Saddam Hussein, "He's dead and he ain't never coming back." THAT is why
America is there. I suppose Saddam killed all of those Kurds and fellow
countrymen with Love, huh?

Al
Euro
2004-01-31 15:42:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by AlleyCat
Post by Richard
Post by Richard
Post by ßÅÐŧ§
Post by ßÅÐŧ§
And still the Frogs want a cut of the reconstruction take. Sacre
bleu!
Post by Richard
Post by ßÅÐŧ§
Post by ßÅÐŧ§
Iraqi government docs: Saddam bribed France
"Oil runs thicker than blood," one unnamed former ambassador said.
So, the Bushies are bitching that France's motives were Iraqi oil.
Even if true, isn't that the pot calling the kettle black?
Euro
In analyzing what happened after the French and Krauts deserted their U.S.
allies in this matter, many French observers have stated categorically
that
Post by Richard
France has been irreparably harmed politically, economically by not
joining
Post by Richard
with the U.S. They lost on two counts, in other words.
Serves them right.
-Rich
Whereas the US have every day soldiers dying in a foreign country where it
is impossible to find any weapon of mass destruction - as had been predicted
by many.
Euro
As what Byron De La Beckwith said about Medger Evers, the same goes for
Saddam Hussein, "He's dead and he ain't never coming back." THAT is why
America is there. I suppose Saddam killed all of those Kurds and fellow
countrymen with Love, huh?
Al
I certainly don't suppose that's the reason why he was militarily removed.

Euro
AlleyCat
2004-01-31 18:25:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Euro
Post by AlleyCat
Post by Richard
Post by Richard
Post by ßÅÐŧ§
Post by ßÅÐŧ§
And still the Frogs want a cut of the reconstruction take. Sacre
bleu!
Post by Richard
Post by ßÅÐŧ§
Post by ßÅÐŧ§
Iraqi government docs: Saddam bribed France
"Oil runs thicker than blood," one unnamed former ambassador said.
So, the Bushies are bitching that France's motives were Iraqi oil.
Even if true, isn't that the pot calling the kettle black?
Euro
In analyzing what happened after the French and Krauts deserted their
U.S.
Post by AlleyCat
Post by Richard
Post by Richard
allies in this matter, many French observers have stated categorically
that
Post by Richard
France has been irreparably harmed politically, economically by not
joining
Post by Richard
with the U.S. They lost on two counts, in other words.
Serves them right.
-Rich
Whereas the US have every day soldiers dying in a foreign country where
it
Post by AlleyCat
Post by Richard
is impossible to find any weapon of mass destruction - as had been
predicted
Post by AlleyCat
Post by Richard
by many.
Euro
As what Byron De La Beckwith said about Medger Evers, the same goes for
Saddam Hussein, "He's dead and he ain't never coming back." THAT is why
America is there. I suppose Saddam killed all of those Kurds and fellow
countrymen with Love, huh?
Al
I certainly don't suppose that's the reason why he was militarily removed.
Euro
No, you're probably right, but God damn it, he DID kill all of those
people and liberals and Democrats NEVER seem to remember that.

Al
Euro
2004-02-01 03:53:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by AlleyCat
Post by Euro
Post by AlleyCat
Post by Richard
Post by Richard
Post by ßÅÐŧ§
Post by ßÅÐŧ§
And still the Frogs want a cut of the reconstruction take.
Sacre
Post by AlleyCat
Post by Euro
Post by AlleyCat
Post by Richard
bleu!
Post by Richard
Post by ßÅÐŧ§
Post by ßÅÐŧ§
Iraqi government docs: Saddam bribed France
"Oil runs thicker than blood," one unnamed former ambassador said.
So, the Bushies are bitching that France's motives were Iraqi oil.
Even if true, isn't that the pot calling the kettle black?
Euro
In analyzing what happened after the French and Krauts deserted their
U.S.
Post by AlleyCat
Post by Richard
Post by Richard
allies in this matter, many French observers have stated categorically
that
Post by Richard
France has been irreparably harmed politically, economically by not
joining
Post by Richard
with the U.S. They lost on two counts, in other words.
Serves them right.
-Rich
Whereas the US have every day soldiers dying in a foreign country where
it
Post by AlleyCat
Post by Richard
is impossible to find any weapon of mass destruction - as had been
predicted
Post by AlleyCat
Post by Richard
by many.
Euro
As what Byron De La Beckwith said about Medger Evers, the same goes for
Saddam Hussein, "He's dead and he ain't never coming back." THAT is why
America is there. I suppose Saddam killed all of those Kurds and fellow
countrymen with Love, huh?
Al
I certainly don't suppose that's the reason why he was militarily removed.
Euro
No, you're probably right, but God damn it, he DID kill all of those
people and liberals and Democrats NEVER seem to remember that.
Al
I believe you're wrong. I'd have personally been glad to see an action taken
for those reasons when these crimes took place, i.e. in 1988 or in 1991. You
may remember that, in 1991, the forces of the coalition to liberate Kuwait
didn't move to help the Shiites, and this was truly a case of
non-assistance.

Euro
AlleyCat
2004-02-01 19:44:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Euro
Al
I believe you're wrong. I'd have personally been glad to see an action taken
for those reasons when these crimes took place, i.e. in 1988 or in 1991. You
may remember that, in 1991, the forces of the coalition to liberate Kuwait
didn't move to help the Shiites, and this was truly a case of
non-assistance.
Euro
http://usinfo.state.gov/regional/nea/iraq/iraq99h.htm
Euro
2004-02-01 23:42:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by AlleyCat
Post by Euro
Al
I believe you're wrong. I'd have personally been glad to see an action taken
for those reasons when these crimes took place, i.e. in 1988 or in 1991. You
may remember that, in 1991, the forces of the coalition to liberate Kuwait
didn't move to help the Shiites, and this was truly a case of
non-assistance.
Euro
http://usinfo.state.gov/regional/nea/iraq/iraq99h.htm
That still doesn't make a case for justifying the 2003 attack on Iraq. You
will notice that the North Korean regime is committing human rights
violations and starving its population, while developping weapons of mass
destruction, including a nuclear arsenal.

Is that a reason for the US government to take action? Apparently no.

Euro
Faergus MacGillicutty
2004-02-02 01:23:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Euro
Post by AlleyCat
Post by Euro
Al
I believe you're wrong. I'd have personally been glad to see an action
taken
Post by AlleyCat
Post by Euro
for those reasons when these crimes took place, i.e. in 1988 or in 1991.
You
Post by AlleyCat
Post by Euro
may remember that, in 1991, the forces of the coalition to liberate
Kuwait
Post by AlleyCat
Post by Euro
didn't move to help the Shiites, and this was truly a case of
non-assistance.
Euro
http://usinfo.state.gov/regional/nea/iraq/iraq99h.htm
That still doesn't make a case for justifying the 2003 attack on Iraq. You
will notice that the North Korean regime is committing human rights
violations and starving its population, while developping weapons of mass
destruction, including a nuclear arsenal.
Is that a reason for the US government to take action? Apparently no.
Euro
Apparantly the Americans focus their discipline on the world's brats one at a
time.
BroJack
2004-02-02 01:29:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Euro
Post by AlleyCat
Post by Euro
Al
I believe you're wrong. I'd have personally been glad to see an action
taken
Post by AlleyCat
Post by Euro
for those reasons when these crimes took place, i.e. in 1988 or in 1991.
You
Post by AlleyCat
Post by Euro
may remember that, in 1991, the forces of the coalition to liberate
Kuwait
Post by AlleyCat
Post by Euro
didn't move to help the Shiites, and this was truly a case of
non-assistance.
Euro
http://usinfo.state.gov/regional/nea/iraq/iraq99h.htm
That still doesn't make a case for justifying the 2003 attack on Iraq. You
will notice that the North Korean regime is committing human rights
violations and starving its population, while developping weapons of mass
destruction, including a nuclear arsenal.
Is that a reason for the US government to take action? Apparently no.
Euro
We're saving the nukes for them.

BroJack
Euro
2004-02-02 12:45:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by BroJack
Post by Euro
Post by AlleyCat
Post by Euro
Al
I believe you're wrong. I'd have personally been glad to see an action
taken
Post by AlleyCat
Post by Euro
for those reasons when these crimes took place, i.e. in 1988 or in 1991.
You
Post by AlleyCat
Post by Euro
may remember that, in 1991, the forces of the coalition to liberate
Kuwait
Post by AlleyCat
Post by Euro
didn't move to help the Shiites, and this was truly a case of
non-assistance.
Euro
http://usinfo.state.gov/regional/nea/iraq/iraq99h.htm
That still doesn't make a case for justifying the 2003 attack on Iraq. You
will notice that the North Korean regime is committing human rights
violations and starving its population, while developping weapons of mass
destruction, including a nuclear arsenal.
Is that a reason for the US government to take action? Apparently no.
Euro
We're saving the nukes for them.
BroJack
Beware they don't attack first. Have you considered what the security
records of Bush's international policy would look like with a North Korean
nuclear test right before the November elections?

Euro
BroJack
2004-02-02 13:11:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jon Cornell
Post by BroJack
Post by Euro
Post by AlleyCat
Post by Euro
Al
I believe you're wrong. I'd have personally been glad to see an
action
Post by BroJack
Post by Euro
taken
Post by AlleyCat
Post by Euro
for those reasons when these crimes took place, i.e. in 1988 or in
1991.
Post by BroJack
Post by Euro
You
Post by AlleyCat
Post by Euro
may remember that, in 1991, the forces of the coalition to liberate
Kuwait
Post by AlleyCat
Post by Euro
didn't move to help the Shiites, and this was truly a case of
non-assistance.
Euro
http://usinfo.state.gov/regional/nea/iraq/iraq99h.htm
That still doesn't make a case for justifying the 2003 attack on Iraq.
You
Post by BroJack
Post by Euro
will notice that the North Korean regime is committing human rights
violations and starving its population, while developping weapons of mass
destruction, including a nuclear arsenal.
Is that a reason for the US government to take action? Apparently no.
Euro
We're saving the nukes for them.
BroJack
Beware they don't attack first. Have you considered what the security
records of Bush's international policy would look like with a North Korean
nuclear test right before the November elections?
Euro
Then I suggest a preemptive proactive strike right now.

BroJack
Malev
2004-02-02 13:20:21 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 02 Feb 2004 13:11:08 GMT, ***@windswept.net (BroJack) wrote:


<snip - untrimmed quotes>
Post by BroJack
Then I suggest a preemptive proactive strike right now.
BroJack
from Korea ?
BroJack
2004-02-02 15:34:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Malev
<snip - untrimmed quotes>
Post by BroJack
Then I suggest a preemptive proactive strike right now.
BroJack
from Korea ?
The expensive nukes are rusting away under the Nebraska alfalfa field.

I say use 'em or lose 'em.

BroJack
AlleyCat
2004-02-03 00:58:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by BroJack
Post by Malev
<snip - untrimmed quotes>
Post by BroJack
Then I suggest a preemptive proactive strike right now.
BroJack
from Korea ?
The expensive nukes are rusting away under the Nebraska alfalfa field.
I say use 'em or lose 'em.
BroJack
As the General in "Spies Like Us" said, "An unused weapon is a useless
weapon."

Al
Montesquiou
2004-01-30 17:38:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by ßÅÐŧ§
And still the Frogs want a cut of the reconstruction take. Sacre bleu!
Iraqi government docs: Saddam bribed France
Papers said to have come from ousted regime show oil used to buy opposition
Posted: January 28, 2004
Saddam Hussein used oil to bribe French officials into opposing the U.S.-led
war against Iraq, according to documents purportedly from the ousted Baghdad
regime's oil ministry.
Those papers are an obvious forgery.
Hell, the news is just out and you already say it is "obvious
forgery". How can you say it is "obvious" while you/we haven't even
seen any document yet?
Normally after such serious claims those accused demand to see the
evidence first and question the authenticity of evidence second.
Here, the news is just out and you are already in your second line of
defence. What are you so nervous about?
Shexmus
Il n'y a aucune raison pour être nerveux. Et surtout pas Chirac.

1) D'abord cette divulgation n'est qu'affaire de politique electorale
aux USA.
2 ) Les Etats unis ont perdu toute crédibilité depuis longtemps dans
le monde : Désastre de la CIA et du FBI qui ne savent pas prévoir le
11 septembre, sans parler des armes de destructions massives,
impossibilité de Trouver Bin Laden et Saddam ( qui a été remis par les
Kurdes)
3 ) Mensonges en tout genre de l'armée qui nie ses bavures, ment au
sujet du Soldat Lynch etc..
4 ) Un président élu frauduleusement qui ment à son pays
5) La longue, très longue liste des mensonges des Etats Unis envers la
France : Les supposés passeports, la French Connexion de Saffire, Les
missiles Français etc...

Alors vous voyez, mon cher Shexmus, ce n'est pas un grossier montage
présenté par un gouvernement fantoche installé par vous même qui va
destabiliter ceux qui sont contre la guerre.

J'y vois une tentative désespérée d'une administration à l'agonie,
inquiète de voir un candidat démocrate menacer une réélection qui
semblait assurée.

6 ) La preuve que ce montage est grossier est qu'il ne cite pas le
personnage politique qui, nous le savons en France, était l'ami de
Saddam, je veux parler de Le Pen. Celui-ci oui était impliqué.
Cependant vous ne le citez pas car .... c'est le principal adversaire
de Chirac.
Même celui que vous avez cité - Pasqua - était adversaire de Chirac.
Mais il est vrai qu'il était déjà retiré de la vie politique Française
par Chirac Lui-même avec l'aide de la justice.
Les Français au moins font des procés aux politiciens véreux, de
France et des Etats Unis. Je vous rappelle que votre Vice Président
Cheney est impliqué dans une affaire de corruption.
Shexmus
2004-01-31 07:55:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Montesquiou
Post by ßÅÐŧ§
And still the Frogs want a cut of the reconstruction take. Sacre bleu!
Iraqi government docs: Saddam bribed France
Papers said to have come from ousted regime show oil used to buy opposition
Posted: January 28, 2004
Saddam Hussein used oil to bribe French officials into opposing the U.S.-led
war against Iraq, according to documents purportedly from the ousted Baghdad
regime's oil ministry.
Those papers are an obvious forgery.
Hell, the news is just out and you already say it is "obvious
forgery". How can you say it is "obvious" while you/we haven't even
seen any document yet?
Normally after such serious claims those accused demand to see the
evidence first and question the authenticity of evidence second.
Here, the news is just out and you are already in your second line of
defence. What are you so nervous about?
Shexmus
Il n'y a aucune raison pour être nerveux. Et surtout pas Chirac.
1) D'abord cette divulgation n'est qu'affaire de politique electorale
aux USA.
2 ) Les Etats unis ont perdu toute crédibilité depuis longtemps dans
le monde : Désastre de la CIA et du FBI qui ne savent pas prévoir le
11 septembre, sans parler des armes de destructions massives,
impossibilité de Trouver Bin Laden et Saddam ( qui a été remis par les
Kurdes)
3 ) Mensonges en tout genre de l'armée qui nie ses bavures, ment au
sujet du Soldat Lynch etc..
4 ) Un président élu frauduleusement qui ment à son pays
5) La longue, très longue liste des mensonges des Etats Unis envers la
France : Les supposés passeports, la French Connexion de Saffire, Les
missiles Français etc...
Alors vous voyez, mon cher Shexmus, ce n'est pas un grossier montage
présenté par un gouvernement fantoche installé par vous même qui va
destabiliter ceux qui sont contre la guerre.
J'y vois une tentative désespérée d'une administration à l'agonie,
inquiète de voir un candidat démocrate menacer une réélection qui
semblait assurée.
6 ) La preuve que ce montage est grossier est qu'il ne cite pas le
personnage politique qui, nous le savons en France, était l'ami de
Saddam, je veux parler de Le Pen. Celui-ci oui était impliqué.
Cependant vous ne le citez pas car .... c'est le principal adversaire
de Chirac.
Même celui que vous avez cité - Pasqua - était adversaire de Chirac.
Mais il est vrai qu'il était déjà retiré de la vie politique Française
par Chirac Lui-même avec l'aide de la justice.
Les Français au moins font des procés aux politiciens véreux, de
France et des Etats Unis. Je vous rappelle que votre Vice Président
Cheney est impliqué dans une affaire de corruption.
Sorry, I don't understand frogish. I had to google your post into
English to make any sense out of it so far as it made any sense.

You are regurgitating the predictable lines, muddling the issues,
ducking left and right, jumping up and down, hiding behind this or
that person's alleged corruption, falsehood, illegitimacy, etc, etc.

The fact is that there is neither an American, nor British (except
that Saddam loyalist Galloway), nor an Australian politician on the
devil's shopping list.

But there are significant French names in the list, which explains
France's oppositon to the regime change in Iraq. It is full of Russian
politicians, which explains why they were opposed to the liberation of
Iraq. Germans are not there, which support the documents'
authenticity. Why leave the Germans out if it is forgery?

To finish off, I am not American, but Kurdish. The people you sold to
Saddam for a few lousy barrels of oil.

Hold your heads in collective shame. Viva la America!

Shexmus
Euro
2004-02-01 04:04:32 UTC
Permalink
"Shexmus" <***@hotmail.com>
??????:***@posting.google.com...

(snipped)
Post by Shexmus
But there are significant French names in the list, which explains
France's oppositon to the regime change in Iraq.
Significant? So far, only Pasqua, who got about 2% at the 1995 Presidential
election, could not have the necessary political supports to be candidate at
the 2002 Presidential election, is not at the Parliament anymore and just
has a lose local mandate.

You are at the extreme limit of being ridiculous. Pasqua is everything but
significant. If he was bribed, that certainly doesn't explain anything about
France's stance on Iraq.

Euro
Jon Cornell
2004-01-30 21:54:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by ßÅÐŧ§
And still the Frogs want a cut of the reconstruction take. Sacre bleu!
When considering France's relationship with Iraq, I think it's helpful
to consider America's relationship with Saudi Arabia.

Both Saudi Arabia and Iraq have been long ruled by despots in
situations where the well-being of the citizens is a low priority.
And both are oil-rich nations with Western trading partners.

It is almost a certainty that Saudi oil is flowing to the U.S. in ways
that are politically motivated. You can call that a "bribe" if you
want, but it's clear to the Saudis that the price of maintaining their
regime includes buying off the Americans.

How do you suppose the U.S. would have reacted if, in 2002, France had
announced plans to overthrow the despotic Saudi regime and liberate
the Saudi people?? Would we have merely vetoed the plan in the UN, or
would we have declared war on France outright?

Cheers,
Jon
ßÅÐŧ§
2004-01-31 01:38:25 UTC
Permalink
"Jon Cornell"
Post by Jon Cornell
How do you suppose the U.S. would have reacted if, in 2002, France had
announced plans to overthrow the despotic Saudi regime and liberate
the Saudi people?? Would we have merely vetoed the plan in the UN, or
would we have declared war on France outright?
Chances are we'd have turned on CNN, pulled up an easy chair, opened a cold
one, and watched six million French muslims do a re-enactment of the
storming of the Bastille as soon as Chirac announced the invasion.
Jon Cornell
2004-01-31 02:10:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by ßÅÐŧ§
"Jon Cornell"
Post by Jon Cornell
How do you suppose the U.S. would have reacted if, in 2002, France had
announced plans to overthrow the despotic Saudi regime and liberate
the Saudi people?? Would we have merely vetoed the plan in the UN, or
would we have declared war on France outright?
Chances are we'd have turned on CNN, pulled up an easy chair, opened a cold
one, and watched six million French muslims do a re-enactment of the
storming of the Bastille as soon as Chirac announced the invasion.
There are roughly seven million American muslims. What makes you
think the French Muslim reaction to an attack on Saudi Arabia would be
significantly different from the American Muslim reaction to an attack
on Iraq?

A cold one does sound good right about now, though.

Cheers,
Jon
Byker
2004-01-31 03:54:02 UTC
Permalink
"Jon Cornell"
Post by Jon Cornell
Post by ßÅÐŧ§
"Jon Cornell"
Post by Jon Cornell
How do you suppose the U.S. would have reacted if, in 2002, France had
announced plans to overthrow the despotic Saudi regime and liberate
the Saudi people?? Would we have merely vetoed the plan in the UN, or
would we have declared war on France outright?
Chances are we'd have turned on CNN, pulled up an easy chair, opened a cold
one, and watched six million French muslims do a re-enactment of the
storming of the Bastille as soon as Chirac announced the invasion.
There are roughly seven million American muslims.
Who largely live in ethinc neighborhood or at the fringes of society. Most
Islamic converts here in the States are borderline nutcases, outcasts who
don't fit in, and are usually looking for some guru to show them the way to
the Ultimate Truth, whatever the hell that is. Used to, these misfits would
wind up as Moonies or Hare Krishnas, freakazoids but generally harmless. In
the case of John Walker Lindh, it seems that an imam got to him first. "The
two men represent the dominant streams of Islam in America - where
immigrants from Pakistan, India and other South Asian countries and
U.S.-born blacks comprise the majority of Muslims." In other words,
Mecca-bowers can be physically identified (sure, there are some from the
former Yugoslavia who are light-skinned and blue-eyed, but so far they've
kept a very low profile and haven't assumed the belligerance that the rest
of Islam has become infected with). American blacks in mosques outnumber
the "Euros" fifty to one. Das right, bro: Chances are the White folks are
gonna be left out of this sweep.....
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Islam in America Dominated by South Asians, Blacks; Maintains Ties Overseas

By Rachel Zoll
The Associated Press

Arshad Majid's family came to America from India when he was 4, and they
brought their religious devotion with them. Majid remembers waking up early,
climbing onto his father's lap and watching him read the Quran.

Later, Majid learned the meaning of the "strange, squiggly" lines in Arabic
and embraced the faith, keeping a prayer rug in his Long Island office when
he worked as a prosecutor.

Talib Abdur-Rashid was a different kind of "immigrant," moving as a child
from Greensboro, N.C., where he lived "in the shadow of American apartheid,"
to make a new home in the South Bronx, he said.

He had another name before, one he won't reveal, and worshipped at a
Lutheran church, until he found a new spiritual path with other American
blacks in a Harlem mosque that followers of Malcolm X built.

The two men represent the dominant streams of Islam in America - where
immigrants from Pakistan, India and other South Asian countries and
U.S.-born blacks comprise the majority of Muslims.

While some Arabs in the United States are Muslim, most are not. Some 77
percent are Christian, according to a survey last year by the Arab American
Institute.

The complexities and divisions of worldwide Islam are here in the United
States - with Sunnis, Shiites, Sufis and others. Yet, there is a decidedly
American twist, originating mainly from the Islam that came from the black
identity movements of the early 1900s.

"The Muslim community in America is far from being monolithic," said Mahmoud
Ayoub, a professor of Islamic studies at Temple University in Philadelphia.
"The community here reflects the world."

Estimates of the number of Muslims in the United States vary wildly.

"The Mosque in America," a report commissioned by Muslim groups and released
this year, put the figure at around 6 million. But the University of
Chicago's National Opinion Research Center, in a report commissioned by the
American Jewish Committee, said it was no more than 2.8 million

Another study, the American Religious Identification Survey, released in
October by the Graduate Center at the City University of New York, estimated
the number was closer to 1.8 million.

According to the mosque study, 33 percent of those active in mosques are
South Asian and 30 percent are black. Arabs comprise 25 percent, while
European immigrants, Africans, U.S.-born whites and others make up the rest.

"When I first began reading about Islam, there was something in the
message," said Abdur-Rashid, imam of Harlem's Mosque of Islamic Brotherhood,
where he first embraced the religion. "The fact that Islam is a way of life
and not just a doctrine, the absolute centrality of almighty God and the
prophetic tradition, and the very strong position that Islam has on social
justice."

Islamic communities are just developing in this country.

Nearly all of the nation's estimated 1,200 mosques were founded in the last
30 years, many with money from governments of predominantly Muslim
countries.

The community has few institutions where religious leaders, or imams, can be
trained. As a result, nations like Egypt often send imams to the United
States, keeping Muslims in this country closely tied with worldwide Islam.

A clash of views is sometimes the result. Ayoub recalled how he argued with
a conservative imam from overseas, who said U.S. Muslims could only marry
virgins.

"Immigrant Muslims, and I don't exclude myself, we are a very mixed
blessing," said Ayoub, who is from Lebanon. "We do bring some ideas, and
people may benefit from some of the things we know, but then we impede the
Americanization of the Muslim community."

Waves of immigration helped Islam develop in the United States, starting in
the late 1800s, when Mideast natives came to this country to earn money.

Many became peddlers, work that required little English, then traveled the
country, often serving farming communities. One of the earliest mosques,
dubbed the "Mother Mosque," is in Cedar Rapids, Iowa.

War and economic hardship overseas drew more Muslims to the United States in
the 20th century. The largest influx began after 1965, when President Lyndon
Johnson abolished an immigration quota system that had disproportionately
benefited Europeans. Muslim communities are now thriving in Los Angeles,
Detroit, Chicago, New York and other cities.

While migration was bringing Islam to parts of America, blacks born into the
racism of this country were discovering the faith on their own.

In the 1930s in Detroit, as blacks were working to forge a group identity,
Wallace D. Fard began preaching that he came from Mecca with a message: that
blacks were members of an ancient tribe called Shabazz, Jane Smith wrote in
her book "Islam in America."

Fard and his followers soon formed what became known as the Nation of Islam.
Fard's top lieutenant, Elijah Muhammad, eventually succeeded him.

The Nation's belief that Fard had divine status and Elijah Muhammad was a
prophet is the major source of division that continues today between the
group and mainstream Muslims. In orthodox Islam, no one other than God is
divine and the ancient Muhammad is considered the final prophet.

The Institute of Islamic Information and Education in Chicago calls the
Nation a "pseudo-Islamic cult."

Islam among blacks is much broader than the Nation. Elijah Muhammad's son,
W.D. Mohammed, took over the movement in the 1970s, but gradually moved his
thousands of followers toward mainstream Islam.

He began promoting the Sunni branch of the religion - followed by the
majority of Muslims worldwide. Louis Farrakhan then decided to rebuild the
old Nation of Islam under his own leadership.

"(W.D. Mohammed) began to rethink publicly the ideology that had
characterized the Nation in its earlier days," Smith wrote. "While always
careful to credit his father with wise and skilled leadership, he made it
clear that as Fard was not divine, so Elijah was not the pure and
unblemished messenger of Allah."

Many other blacks belong to mosques unaffiliated with either of these two
leaders.

Despite efforts to bring black and immigrant Muslims together, experts say
ethnic differences continue to divide them - even as the immigrant members
of the community grow more comfortable in their new country.

This year, Ramadan, the holy month when Muslims fast from dawn to dusk,
falls during Thanksgiving.

"We'll just have a smaller turkey this year, after we break our fast," Majid
said.
Magnus Link
2004-01-31 21:18:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Byker
Post by Jon Cornell
Post by ßÅÐŧ§
Post by Jon Cornell
How do you suppose the U.S. would have reacted if, in 2002, France had
announced plans to overthrow the despotic Saudi regime and liberate
the Saudi people?? Would we have merely vetoed the plan in the UN, or
would we have declared war on France outright?
Chances are we'd have turned on CNN, pulled up an easy chair, opened a
cold one, and watched six million French muslims do a re-enactment of
the storming of the Bastille as soon as Chirac announced the invasion.
There are roughly seven million American muslims.
Who largely live in ethinc neighborhood or at the fringes of society. Most
Islamic converts here in the States are borderline nutcases, outcasts who
don't fit in, and are usually looking for some guru to show them the way to
the Ultimate Truth, whatever the hell that is.
The same could be said about the French muslims.
James Calivar
2004-02-01 04:36:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Magnus Link
Post by Byker
Post by Jon Cornell
Post by ßÅÐŧ§
Post by Jon Cornell
How do you suppose the U.S. would have reacted if, in 2002, France had
announced plans to overthrow the despotic Saudi regime and liberate
the Saudi people?? Would we have merely vetoed the plan in the UN, or
would we have declared war on France outright?
Chances are we'd have turned on CNN, pulled up an easy chair, opened a
cold one, and watched six million French muslims do a re-enactment of
the storming of the Bastille as soon as Chirac announced the invasion.
There are roughly seven million American muslims.
Who largely live in ethinc neighborhood or at the fringes of society. Most
Islamic converts here in the States are borderline nutcases, outcasts who
don't fit in, and are usually looking for some guru to show them the way to
the Ultimate Truth, whatever the hell that is.
The same could be said about the French muslims.
Sure, somebody could say it - but it wouldn't necessarily be *true*. How do you
explain the complacency of the French government, when they completely fail to
react when nationalized French Muslims systematically persecute Jews? Try
pulling that crap in the USA and I guarantee there will be some repurcussions.
(And please, spare me your "Oh well that's because USA is a Zionist state"
rhetoric.)
David
2004-02-04 07:27:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Calivar
explain the complacency of the French government, when they completely fail to
react when nationalized French Muslims systematically persecute Jews? Try
You live too far away from France to know better, it seems. There is
plenty of reactions about Anti-semitism in France, and the situation,
though not good enough, is much better than before.
Post by James Calivar
pulling that crap in the USA and I guarantee there will be some repurcussions.
(And please, spare me your "Oh well that's because USA is a Zionist state"
rhetoric.)
No anti-semitism in USA ?

http://www.adl.org/Anti_semitism/audit_JanMay_2002.asp
LeftBank
2004-02-04 10:17:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by David
Post by James Calivar
explain the complacency of the French government, when they completely fail to
react when nationalized French Muslims systematically persecute Jews?
Try
Post by David
You live too far away from France to know better, it seems. There is
plenty of reactions about Anti-semitism in France, and the situation,
though not good enough, is much better than before.
I feel the situation is far worst, 'Morts au juifs' is a common refrain at
muslim 'manifs' in France and this week we have seen two public
demonstrations of violent verbal antisemetic attacks in the presence of
public officials, including Bernadette Chirac.

The Israeli singer Shirel was at a concert in Macon, attended by the Mrs
Chirac and was 'saddened' to hear the concert interupted by arabs shouting
'death to jews'. A link to this occcurance is here
http://www.thedissidentfrogman.com/dacha/index.html and here
http://www.france-echos.com/actualite.php?cle=456 . Finally it seems that
Raffarin, the prime minister, is starting to acknowledge that anti-semitism
may actually have something to do with poorly integrated immigrants and not
the usual suspects, the extreme right. This is a healthy start and one would
hope that collective cognitive dissonance of France's intellectual left and
political animals will start to understand that integration has been an
almost complete failure and that the totalitarian ummic ideology is the
driving force behind anti semitism and complete lack of desire to be at one
with 'La Republique'

The other anti-semitic outburst that didn't make headlines this week was at
a Israel-Belgium football match (not France I grant you but we francophones
also have a sort of ummic brotherhood defined more by mutual respect than by
hatred of kuffars ). Once again the slogans, 'Death to Jews" and "Jews to
the Gas Chamber" were chanted by Hezbollah flag waving 'youths'.
http://www.france-echos.com/actualite.php?cle=455

As usual SOS Racisme continues to ignore this kind of racism. I believe the
vast majority of the French to be completely opposed to all forms of racism,
especially anti semitism, but a vocal proportion of our immigrants have no
shame in demonstrating a viceral hatred of all things jewish. And the fact
that slogans such as 'Death to Jews' can be pronounced in public without
being punished, is shameful.
Post by David
Post by James Calivar
pulling that crap in the USA and I guarantee there will be some repurcussions.
(And please, spare me your "Oh well that's because USA is a Zionist state"
rhetoric.)
No anti-semitism in USA ?
http://www.adl.org/Anti_semitism/audit_JanMay_2002.asp
David
2004-02-05 11:02:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by LeftBank
I feel the situation is far worst, 'Morts au juifs' is a common refrain at
muslim 'manifs' in France and this week we have seen two public
demonstrations of violent verbal antisemetic attacks in the presence of
public officials, including Bernadette Chirac.
The Israeli singer Shirel was at a concert in Macon, attended by the Mrs
Chirac and was 'saddened' to hear the concert interupted by arabs shouting
'death to jews'. A link to this occcurance is here
I know that case. Police is identifying the perpetrators based on
tapes. 5 of them are already in "garde à vue" ( jailed at the police
station ), and the investigation continues.
Post by LeftBank
As usual SOS Racisme continues to ignore this kind of racism. I believe the
vast majority of the French to be completely opposed to all forms of racism,
especially anti semitism, but a vocal proportion of our immigrants have no
shame in demonstrating a viceral hatred of all things jewish. And the fact
that slogans such as 'Death to Jews' can be pronounced in public without
being punished, is shameful.
I totally agree. But the situation is still less worse ( notice I
didn't say much better ) than in the years 2000-2002, if you compare
the numbers of reported incidents.

ßÅÐŧ§
2004-01-31 05:39:49 UTC
Permalink
"Jon Cornell"
Post by Jon Cornell
There are roughly seven million American muslims.
Who comprise about 2% of the U.S. population, as opposed to 10% of France's.
Post by Jon Cornell
What makes you
think the French Muslim reaction to an attack on Saudi Arabia would be
significantly different from the American Muslim reaction to an attack
on Iraq?
The French muslims have become so large a segment of the population that
they can take to the streets and essentially make the government accomodate
their demands

Let the Mecca-bowers try that shit in the U.S. and they'll either be
deported, shot down, or confined behind barbed wire like the
Japanese-Americans in WWII.
AlleyCat
2004-01-31 14:29:08 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@posting.google.com>,
***@youhavenochancetosurvivemakeyourtime.com
says...
Post by Jon Cornell
Post by ßÅÐŧ§
"Jon Cornell"
Post by Jon Cornell
How do you suppose the U.S. would have reacted if, in 2002, France had
announced plans to overthrow the despotic Saudi regime and liberate
the Saudi people?? Would we have merely vetoed the plan in the UN, or
would we have declared war on France outright?
Chances are we'd have turned on CNN, pulled up an easy chair, opened a cold
one, and watched six million French muslims do a re-enactment of the
storming of the Bastille as soon as Chirac announced the invasion.
There are roughly seven million American muslims. What makes you
think the French Muslim reaction to an attack on Saudi Arabia would be
significantly different from the American Muslim reaction to an attack
on Iraq?
A cold one does sound good right about now, though.
Cheers,
Jon
American government has the resolve to do something about it. France? No
way.

Al
Lafayette
2004-01-31 03:35:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by ßÅÐŧ§
"Jon Cornell"
Post by Jon Cornell
How do you suppose the U.S. would have reacted if, in 2002, France had
announced plans to overthrow the despotic Saudi regime and liberate
the Saudi people?? Would we have merely vetoed the plan in the UN, or
would we have declared war on France outright?
Chances are we'd have turned on CNN, pulled up an easy chair, opened a cold
one, and watched six million French muslims do a re-enactment of the
storming of the Bastille as soon as Chirac announced the invasion.
No, we would have arrested them all first and put them in camps like
you did with japaneses during WWII...
James Calivar
2004-01-31 04:17:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lafayette
Post by ßÅÐŧ§
"Jon Cornell"
Post by Jon Cornell
How do you suppose the U.S. would have reacted if, in 2002, France had
announced plans to overthrow the despotic Saudi regime and liberate
the Saudi people?? Would we have merely vetoed the plan in the UN, or
would we have declared war on France outright?
Chances are we'd have turned on CNN, pulled up an easy chair, opened a cold
one, and watched six million French muslims do a re-enactment of the
storming of the Bastille as soon as Chirac announced the invasion.
No, we would have arrested them all first and put them in camps like
you did with japaneses during WWII...
I truly find that hard to believe. The French are well-known for turning over
and spreading their asses for anyone who cares to come along and "conquer" their
worthless nation. As I recall, they even supplied the ass-lube to the Germans
themselves - but hey, isn't it hard to resist a wurst presed up against the
rectum when you're French?
Jon Cornell
2004-01-31 23:19:50 UTC
Permalink
"James Calivar" <***@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message news:<6%FSb.4056$***@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>...

<snip>
Post by James Calivar
I truly find that hard to believe. The French are well-known for turning over
and spreading their asses for anyone who cares to come along and "conquer"
their worthless nation. As I recall, they even supplied the ass-lube to the
Germans themselves - but hey, isn't it hard to resist a wurst presed up
against the rectum when you're French?
I believe you're referring to the same French who first drove the
English out of France during the hundred years war, then conquered
much of Europe under Napoleon, then made the American revolution
possible by opposing the British, and currently possess one of the
world's five strongest militaries.

Cheers,
Jon
James Calivar
2004-02-01 04:38:38 UTC
Permalink
"Jon Cornell"
Post by Jon Cornell
<snip>
Post by James Calivar
I truly find that hard to believe. The French are well-known for turning over
and spreading their asses for anyone who cares to come along and "conquer"
their worthless nation. As I recall, they even supplied the ass-lube to the
Germans themselves - but hey, isn't it hard to resist a wurst presed up
against the rectum when you're French?
I believe you're referring to the same French who first drove the
English out of France during the hundred years war, then conquered
much of Europe under Napoleon, then made the American revolution
possible by opposing the British, and currently possess one of the
world's five strongest militaries.
Cheers,
Jon
Yep - those very same French. The same ones who decided about a hundred years
ago to stop caring about the world, and start caring about their poodles more.
"Oh honh honh honh."
James Calivar
2004-01-31 01:11:25 UTC
Permalink
"Jon Cornell"
Post by Jon Cornell
Post by ßÅÐŧ§
And still the Frogs want a cut of the reconstruction take. Sacre bleu!
When considering France's relationship with Iraq, I think it's helpful
to consider America's relationship with Saudi Arabia.
The difference being that Iraq was a dictatorship; Saudi Arabia is a monarchy.
Iraqi officials ordered the mass executions of their own people; Saudi Arabia
(as far as we know) has not. Iraw actively sought WMDs for decades; Saudi
Arabia did not. Don't get me wrong; I'm no fan of the Saudis. But at least
their hands are relatively clean.
Lafayette
2004-01-31 14:49:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by ßÅÐŧ§
"Jon Cornell"
Post by Jon Cornell
Post by ßÅÐŧ§
And still the Frogs want a cut of the reconstruction take. Sacre bleu!
When considering France's relationship with Iraq, I think it's helpful
to consider America's relationship with Saudi Arabia.
The difference being that Iraq was a dictatorship; Saudi Arabia is a monarchy.
Iraqi officials ordered the mass executions of their own people; Saudi Arabia
(as far as we know) has not. Iraw actively sought WMDs for decades; Saudi
Arabia did not. Don't get me wrong; I'm no fan of the Saudis. But at least
their hands are relatively clean.
Can you tell me how a dinasty settles? Is there a major difference
between the way a monarch and a dictator do exercice their power? Tell
me about the links between the Ben Laden familly and the saudian
monarchy...
Do you consider that saudi people is free? If not why don't we
liberate them? And so on for all the non democratic states in the
world. This add a subsequent question : how do americans choose their
target, what are their motivations?
AlleyCat
2004-01-31 14:26:38 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@posting.google.com>,
***@youhavenochancetosurvivemakeyourtime.com
says...
Post by Jon Cornell
Post by ßÅÐŧ§
And still the Frogs want a cut of the reconstruction take. Sacre bleu!
When considering France's relationship with Iraq, I think it's helpful
to consider America's relationship with Saudi Arabia.
Both Saudi Arabia and Iraq have been long ruled by despots in
situations where the well-being of the citizens is a low priority.
And both are oil-rich nations with Western trading partners.
That may be true, but how many people (fellow countrymen) have these
"so-called" despots killed? Let's compare apples to apple's. In other
words, let's not act like a stupid liberal or democrat.

Al
Art
2004-01-31 02:41:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by ßÅÐŧ§
And still the Frogs want a cut of the reconstruction take. Sacre bleu!
Iraqi government docs: Saddam bribed France
Papers said to have come from ousted regime show oil used to buy opposition
Posted: January 28, 2004
Saddam Hussein used oil to bribe French officials into opposing the U.S.-led
war against Iraq, according to documents purportedly from the ousted Baghdad
regime's oil ministry.
[snip]

That France had post sanction agreements with the Ba'athists in Iraq
is already well known.

The Germans, Russians and Chinese also were doing business there.
China's two state run oil companies were gonna clean house as soon as
America could be appeased with the Hussein question. China, herself,
may well have put pressure on Saddam to clean out his WMD's.

No wonder the Security Council was willing to wait until Hell Froze
Over.

Now, we have bribes and names. Nothing new there in French business
and politics.

Nothing much new in the article, either. Chirac's motives have long
been known , for those paying attention.

I don't suppose many have been--but then I could tell that by reading
posts here.


The reason they never got rid of the Mafia is 'cause the Mafia butters
a lot of Big Boy's Bread. It's how the world is.

Don't think for a moment that those fighting the war against the
International Islamic Jihad aren't eating well because of it. Bin
Laden is a pipsqueak in the larger scheme of things. $250 mil of your
daddy's government construction money WILL make you an Emir. But
there's lots more money than THAT out there, and there's lots bigger
fish. Especially THESE days.

---
Art
Loading...